WWII Veteran Transcript

Subject: Werner Kleeman

Interviewer: Bobby Allen Wintermute

Tape Number: 04 of 05

Interview Date: June 9th , 2009

Transcriber: Matthew McCann


Transcription Date: June 30th, 2009



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Interviewer: Thank you again for your hospitality of talking with us 
Werner, we appreciate it as always.  We’re picking up today you’re in 
France, when we were last talking, you had participated in the liberation 
of Cherbourg and had advanced to the contact line before Operation COBRA, 
which was the big advance out of Normandy.  Can you describe for me, the 
events leading up to the break out of Normandy?

Kleeman: After Cherbourg was liberated we moved down back into the 
Carantan area, in order to get ready for the next operation; that was 
about June 27th, 28th.  The weather turned rain every day and when it 
rains over there, it rains not heavy but a lot, continuous stream so 
there was very little movement going on for the few weeks from about June 
28th, 29th, till July 25th.

Interviewer: How did the weather effect the combat conditions?

Kleeman: When the weather is bad, the airplanes can’t come out.  And when the 
airplanes can’t come out anything can stall, especially when you depend on 
movement with tanks and trucks for the infantry the weather is very important.

Interviewer: Okay.  What were you specifically tasked with doing during that 
time?  What did you do, specifically?

Kleeman: We were just marking time.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: To, just staying within the area, and there was nothing much you could 
do because they were waiting for a day that the sun would shine that the 
airplanes can come out, in quantities.

Interviewer: Right.  Were you involved it interrogating any prisoners during 
this time?

Kleeman: No, in those days there was very little movement with the enemy, it was 
a stagnant line, but and it also, they needed time to build up, to bring in 
ammunition and people, and equipment in order to open up a complete new war.

Interviewer: Would you care to talk about July twenty-fifth, what happened that 
day?

Kleeman: Up to July twenty-fifth you didn’t know anything because, when you woke 
up in the morning and the weather wasn’t clear, in other words they needed to a 
few hours to prepare, July twenty-fifth, we had moved into a different area, 
forward, and I was burying cows that morning. I was told to clear the fields 
where the infantry was fighting with dead animals and they gave me four or five 
Frenchmen and they tied the ropes around the cow and I drove the Jeep and put 
them in the bomb shelter.

Interviewer: Wow.

Kleeman: To get rid of the smell, so the infantrymen would not smell the dead 
animals.  It’s a terrible smell in the summer.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: If they lay a day or two in the field.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: The flies come and other animals come, so, I had the order to clear a 
few fields.

Interviewer: Alright.

Kleeman: Which I did and, and in one field the boys were yelling at me ‘Get out, 
get out, your motor is drawing fire!’ I said ‘I have orders to do this.’  Anyhow 
I left, not that a little late another order came clear ‘Get out of the field’ 
so I drove back a few hundred feet, by that time the airplanes had come.

Interviewer: Describe to me that.  The air, the arrival of the airplanes.

Kleeman: The airplanes?  They came in from the Atlantic Ocean, they didn’t come 
in from England.  They flew out over the ocean, made a circle and came in from 
the reverse side.

Interviewer: What kind of planes were they, did you see?

Kleeman: They were bombers, fighters, everything, they, whatever, whatever 
they had available in England was up in the air.

Interviewer: So it was a lot of aircraft.

Kleeman: It was close to, I believe, it was eight thousand.

Interviewer: Wow.

Kleeman: Because they, they only made one flight.  In other words, they 
didn’t go back to load up more bombs.  They were in, in wings, ten 
twelve abreast and one, two behind each other.

Interviewer: My word.

Kleeman: And they came, well organized, they were, they knew what they 
were doing.

Interviewer: What was that like, being that close to that much bombing?

Kleeman: Well you didn’t realize it but before you knew it the bombs 
were landing right around you.  What happened, the front lines from the 
enemy, they had smoke stacks that were lit up to get smoke for pilots 
to see where the front lines were.  But what they didn’t know that they 
was blowing the bombs backward, into our lines.

Interviewer: Wow.

Kleeman: They didn’t realize that the wind could direct the bombs.  And 
so what happened, the first few waves the bombs came back and dropped on 
us, our lines, fourth division and the thirtieth division and we had two 
hundred casualties from our own planes.

Interviewer: These were all-

Kleeman: Yeah, and the General McNair was, came from Washington to observe and 
he was killed, he was with the 30th division.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: So that, then of course they all got excited the Generals were 
running around like crazy they, they had to send messages back to England 
that the pilots get the messages from England they had no connection to talk 
to the airplane.

Interviewer: Way to fight a war.

Kleeman: Yeah, it was an excitement but after a while when the bombing was 
over of course, the Germans were completely in shock.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: They didn’t know what was coming or going.

Interviewer: Did you interview any of the German survivors?

Kleeman: No.

Interviewer: No?

Kleeman: That time I didn’t go up front, and I didn’t know if there were any 
survivors.  But within a few hours word came that the Americans were moving up 
eight, six or eight hundred yard through the bombed area, and that part of the 
eighth regiment was able to move forward.  Because they were worried that they 
may have been hit so hard.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: But word came that they had advanced eight hundred yards.

Interviewer: What was your impression on the effects of the bombing on the 
German positions?

Kleeman: Well that bombardment was supposed to do the miracle because Patton’s 
army was ready to go, his tank army, and he needed an opening to go through 
with it.  One of my friend from my, our headquarters was attached to the 2nd 
Armored Division which was about ten miles away from us.  From where I was, 
and he spent a few days with them and I can give you, his report of what he 
went through up there, and how they experienced everything.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: It was hit and run and finally it opened, but it came to a big battle 
allowed Mortain.

Interviewer: Right, before we get to Mortain, the Mortain battles what was 
your responsibilities within 4th division?

Kleeman: My responsibility was to drive an officer wherever he had to go.  
There was not too much worried about civilians that day because I assumed 
that civilians, there were only a few small villages involved, that they 
probably had to move, moved them back or something because, we really didn’t 
do civil affairs work that day.

Interviewer: Okay.

Kleeman: It was, they the headquarters, the attack headquarters of the 8th 
regiment was in the farmhouse, and I was on the outside wall of that 
farmhouse where I crawled under a table and before I knew it Ernie Pyle 
was next to me.

Interviewer: Want to talk about that?  What did Ernie Pyle say to you?

Kleeman: Ernie Pyle crawled in next to me.

Interviewer: Yeah, did you talk with him-

Kleeman: Yeah!

Interviewer: -What did he say?

Kleeman: Well, it’s in my book, it’s written up, he wrote a story about it but 
it wasn’t published until about, one or two weeks later, because the censors 
didn’t pass it.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: He, they never passed anything what happened the same week.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: They figured that they didn’t want to confuse the Germans.

Interviewer: What did you think about Ernie Pyle?

Kleeman: Well, the officers didn’t like him because he was more, he was trying 
to interview the real soldiers who did the fighting, and he ignored the 
officers so the officers really had no good news, good words for him.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: But the colonel that commanded the eighth infantry that day was Colonel 
Rotwell he used to be Chief of Staff of the division and in order to get a star, 
he had to command a regiment for a while, to get the experience.  So they made 
him commanding officer of the eighth regiment before that attack started, and he 
was running up and down the street ‘Goddamnit! Goddamnit!’ when he saw the bombs 
coming down.

Interviewer: So he wasn’t aware of what was going on either.

Kleeman: He wasn’t aware no, except he saw them falling all around him.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: It was an exciting morning.

Interviewer: I’m sure.

Kleeman: If you know what I mean.

Interviewer: I’m sure.

Kleeman: By that time, General Roosevelt had died before, he didn’t live through 
this attack.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Yeah, he was dead and buried maybe two weeks before, but that was the, 
the opening and within two or three days we were moving a little and I think the 
first little town was Carier I have to look at the map.

Interviewer: Carier is one of the towns yeah.

Kleeman: Yeah, and my colonel, Colonel Gafting when we got into the little town 
he says to me ‘Go in the restaurant and buy yourself a meal’ he sat outside on 
a bench to eat a K-Ration.  He was that type of an officer.  So I went in and 
who was sitting inside?  My friend Salinger. [laughs]

Interviewer: How did he get there ahead of you?

Kleeman: So we were friends again, we met up.

Interviewer: That’s good.

Kleeman: With his friend John Keenan.

Interviewer: That’s very good.  So your chasing the Germans across France at 
this point.  You’re beginning, you’re beginning to chase the Germans across 
France at this time.

Kleeman: Well it didn’t open up that far and that fast, the 2nd Armored 
Division had a lot of problems.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Mortaine, the Germans tried to counterattack.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: And it wasn’t ‘till August seventh or eight that Patton was moved.

Interviewer: The famous, the gap, the Falaise Gap, the aftereffect of 
Mortaine.

Kleeman: I also, I have a large story from a German soldier, from my 
village about he’s ten years in the army, and he was on the German side 
in that attack.

Interviewer: Really?

Kleeman: And he describes it in that book.  So, you know, I read it from 
different angles.

Interviewer: Sure, well I’m interested in your angle.  I mean your 
experiences of the advance in support of 3rd Army going up through 
Falaise, and then beyond.  What was you experiences, what was taking 
place that stands out for you, as an experience during the advance to 
Falaise?

Kleeman: Well the experience was you had to do what you were told, there is 
nothing much I could do on my own specially at that time, when they needed me 
and the Jeep to travel wherever they wanted to go, the officers.

Interviewer: Did you see any of the, the damage the destruction done to the 
Germans during the retreat after Mortain?

Kleeman: Oh you saw the destroyed vehicles, the tanks laying on the side of 
the street.  You saw a lot of destruction.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: And a lot of the homes of the French people in the villages were 
destroyed.  Because when they artillery turned lose they didn’t know where 
the shells would land.  And there was a lot of Farm, farm homes and, 
stables and barns that were destroyed.

Interviewer: How did the French people respond to you, after this?

Kleeman: Well the French, I didn’t have, I didn’t speak French so I didn’t 
have much contact with them, but they like this Colonel Gatling always 
said ‘They get repaid three times for lend-lease when the time comes’ 
[laughs]

Interviewer: That’s pretty cynical attitude.

Kleeman: What else could they do, feel sorry for them?

Interviewer: Yeah.  Did you come across any wounded Germans or-

Kleeman: No in those days we did not find wounded Germans if they were killed 
they buried quick and put a little wooden cross on the side of a field.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: You always find a spot, five or six Germans were buried. They were not 
organized with grave registration like the Americans were.  They buried them 
right there in a field and put a what they called the Burgen Cross, from the 
Burg made a cross that put the name on it and buried the dead, the edge of a 
field.  They figured some day they’d clean them out and put them in the 
cemetery or something.  But they did not have an organization to collect their 
dead bodies.

Interviewer: Did you have any fears of American airplanes mistaking you in your 
Jeep?

Kleeman: Oh that time when you, when you saw this you didn’t want to see 
another plane when the bombs came all around you.  Because you didn’t know if 
the next one would hit you directly or not, nothing you could do.

Interviewer: And so they would attack anything that was moving?

Kleeman: You just, just luck.

Interviewer: Did you know of anybody who was killed in a friendly fire 
incident?

Kleeman: No I didn’t know anybody personal I know two hundred American soldiers 
were killed that hour.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: But I-

Interviewer: Well I mean after that during the advance.

Kleeman: No, none, not that I know of that, that I didn’t know anybody 
personally who was killed in that, but it was a very exciting day.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: Of course it was a day that would take, consider, they opened the war 
for Patton.

Interviewer: Right, well we’re moved ahead to the advance after the Germans, 
after Mortain.

Kleeman: A week after that bombardments the roads were opening up.

Interviewer: Right, right.

Kleeman: And once the roads was opening up it, it moved.  As long as they had 
gasoline to fill up Patton’s tanks every day he was moving.

Interviewer: And you were moving behind them, or?

Kleeman: Well we were, no, Patton was in the 3rd Army, I was in the 1st Army.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: We went different routes.

Interviewer: You were on the North Side.

Kleeman: Yeah we were on the North side, he was on the South side.  He, he 
ran ahead of, his army ran ahead.

Interviewer: Yeah.  One of the big criticisms about the battle of Fallais, 
was that the British were slow.

Kleeman: The British were slow coming out of Caens.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Right, that whether they didn’t have the equipment or they, 
Montgomery wasn’t told, we don’t know.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: There was a, I think a seven mile corridor that was left open.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: And the Germans used that to escape.

Interviewer: Do you think that it should have been closed?  Do you think it 
could have, should have been closed?

Kleeman: Well seven miles with tanks should have been able to, to, to close it 
within a few hours.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: If you know what I-

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: And it was dry land, it wasn’t swamps or anything.

Interviewer: And good weather at that point too.

Kleeman: Yeah, so, but they don’t know whether Bradley didn’t give the order, 
they don’t know exactly whom to blame for, but if they could have closed it 
they would captured a lot of equipment that the Germans would have had to 
destroy or leave it.

Interviewer: Well they left a lot of equipment you said you saw-

Kleeman: They left, a lot of them walked out from the gap.

Interviewer: Yeah.  You said you saw some of that equipment too.

Kleeman: Yeah, Yeah, the equipment was spread all over.

Interviewer: Lets move after Fallais, because that’s when the Germans 
begin really running.

Kleeman: -they ran but they saved themselves, from, from that area back to the 
Seine river they were able to escape, somewhere along the line there wasn’t 
too much fighting going on.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: They were not standing to fight and stop the Americans they were 
running, if you know what I mean.  They had no gas to put it in their tanks, 
so they usually blew up their trucks and they walked.

Interviewer: Did you think the war was going to be over soon?

Kleeman: Well, once, once it moved like that you were hoping, that it might 
end someday.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: It would have ended if they would have killed Hitler on July 19th.

Interviewer: When did you hear about that?

Kleeman: We heard it a day or two later, I think somebody must have picked it 
up from a British Radio or something.

Interviewer: Yeah well, what was the...

Kleeman: A pity it didn’t work.

Interviewer: Well, describe the circumstances when you heard it.

Kleeman: I don’t remember, I don’t remember, I know, the new came somewhere from 
England or something, but if that would have been a success, the war would have 
been finished.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: Cause they claim Rommel was ready with a peace proposal.  You 
understand?

Interviewer: Right, I understand, right.

Kleeman: Yeah, that I’m sure would have forced the Generals to give up, 
because they wouldn’t have had another Hitler to command and dictate them.  
But it didn’t work that way.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: As it worked, they killed six or eight of the biggest Generals 
they had.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: So, that was a, I guess it was very hard for them to kill Hitler, 
when they went to the conference room their guns were taken away from them, 
they weren’t allowed to carry anything like a bomb or anything, so they, 
they had to find a way to smuggle it in a briefcase, that they-

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: -I guess either it wasn’t powerful enough or it was put at the 
wrong feet.

Interviewer: Right, right.

Kleeman: But if that would have worked, the war would have been finished.

Interviewer: Well after the Hitler plot, on July 20th, until Mid-August, 4th 
Division was, was moving very fast across France, and in fact-

Kleeman: After all this we got a rest.  The 4th Division was put in an area and 
told to take it easy because they were involve D-day, plus on Cherbourg, and the 
Breakthrough and we were finally ordered to get a weeks rest in a certain area.

Interviewer: Was this before or after the liberation of Paris?  Was this before 
or after the Paris-

Kleeman: After, after Mortain.

Interviewer: Well after that, before Paris.

Kleeman: Yeah, before Paris.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Because Mortain was still part of the 4th division.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: I can, I have a book, from the 12th infantry they were the ones 
involved in Mortain.

Interviewer: Yes, I read, I’ve been reading the book.

Kleeman: Yeah, yeah.  Well were in rest for a week around August fifteen to 
twentieth, and that was a time when the 1st Army was coming closer to Paris.  
And, and they were, getting messages that Paris, the army must come in to 
Paris to, to prevent a civil war.  They expected a Civil War in Paris that 
the French would come out and kill the Germans, and the Germans would kill 
the French.

Interviewer: Well that’s not a civil war, I mean that’s, that’s-

Kleeman: Well its like a Civil War because the Population would have come out 
to fight.

Interviewer: Right, okay, right.

Kleeman: Right, so anyhow and that was a time that De Gaulle was raising hell 
that he wanted to come, he was still in Africa and finally flew into Normandy 
and went into conference with Bradley and so on, and somewhere along the line, 
the message was that the American Army has to help the 2nd French Armored 
Division that is heading for Paris.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Because if the 2nd French Armored Division gets into Paris and has 
liquor they don’t know what’s going on.

Interviewer: Really?

Kleeman: In other word, in other words they couldn’t trust them, they would do 
the job.

Interviewer: Why, why couldn’t they trust them.  Why do you think they felt 
they couldn’t trust them

Kleeman: Well, I don’t know but they, the word was that the French 2nd Army 
could not be trusted to do it by themselves, they wanted to do it by themselves, 
Le Clerc was fighting for it and De Gaulle came and he also wanted it, he 
wanted to march into Paris with them.

Interviewer: Yeah.  Do you think that’s fair, I mean the French Army 
surrendered in 1940, obviously.

Kleeman: Yeah.

Interviewer: But parts of it kept fighting in Africa, Italy, France yeah.

Kleeman: Where ever they had units yeah, they stayed with the allies and they 
organized in England a whole army.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Yeah, they, they I think a small unit landed on D-Day near the 
British or something I’m not sure, I didn’t really-

Interviewer: I mean the bigger question is it really think that the French 
weren’t fighting-

Kleeman: Well anyhow all of a sudden, it says, Bradley selected the 4th Division 
to, to support the 2nd French Armored Division, into Paris.

Interviewer: And how did you get this news?

Kleeman: We got the message, the division was resting and all of a sudden, 
division got orders to move.  It takes a day to prepare a division to move, by 
the time you get the maps, by the time you go, equipment, rations everything.  
Anyhow, we, we started to move about August nineteen or twentieth towards Paris, 
you could only move so many miles a day when you have twenty thousand men to 
take care of.

Interviewer: Sure, sure.

Kleeman: So, it started to move, it got Rampoule was thirty miles from Paris, 
was the last stop before Paris and the 12th Regiment was picked to go into 
Paris, we found out the 12th was picked the commanding officer was a West 
Pointer who was stationed in Paris a few years as military attaché.

Interviewer: So he knew his way around?

Kleeman: He knew every street in Paris.  The army took advantage of him, if you 
know what I-

Interviewer: Oh yeah.

Kleeman: [Laughs] Of course for him it was like a homecoming.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: But that’s how it worked and, the French Armored went in a different 
then the 4th Division, the 4th Division went in the Southern part of the 
attack, and the French Armored was on the other side, but nothing to do with 
Patton’s army.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: He was not in that neighborhood, and he was not allowed to even think 
about it.  He was fighting his war away from there.

Interviewer: Towards Le Mans.

Kleeman: Yeah, he must have crossed the Seine River down there someplace.

Interviewer: So tell me about your visit to Paris then.

Kleeman: I, I wasn’t allowed in Paris the first two days, they took my Jeep 
away, and let the, the clerk from my outfit, drive with an officer I 
wasn’t even allowed in because I didn’t speak French, anyhow we, Paris was 
liberated on I think Friday afternoon, I didn’t get in till Sunday 
morning.

Interviewer: All the good things was over then.

Kleeman: No it was still crazy, Drunk and everything.

Interviewer: Really?

Kleeman: Yeah, it was still celebrating then I drove in, my, Major [?] he was 
still a captain, and they gave us a French Professor to guide to certain to 
certain things we had to do, and this guy was a real Frenchmen he lived in 
New Elle which was the best section of Paris and he didn’t want to spend the 
night with us, he wanted to go home with his wife every night, so we had to 
pick him up early in the morning and keep him until late at night, and we 
drove around Paris like crazy, no lights, no streetlights, no, no lights in 
the Jeep, you weren’t allowed to turn on any lights on, it was crazy but we 
had to bring him home at night twelve, one o’clock and pick him up again 
seven o’clock in the morning, because he’s a Frenchmen he wanted to stay 
his wife.

Interviewer: Why kind of things were you sent out to look for, what were, 
where were you travelling around the city.  What were you travelling around 
the city looking for?  What were you doing?

Kleeman: Well we were, well we were sleeping in the zoo in the, the city of 
Paris had a zoo, and my division was a, in the zoo, we weren’t allowed in 
Buildings at all.

Interviewer: What were you sent to look for, what were you in y-

Kleeman: Well we dug little holes in the Zoo, the were no more animals 
they must have killed all the animals for meat.

Interviewer: But when you and the captain and the Frenchmen drove around 
the city, what were  you looking for?

Kleeman: Whatever was, closing up whorehouses, we were doing all kinds 
of crazy things.

Interviewer: It was one of those jobs. I understand now.

Kleeman: What a job to close up whorehouses.

Interviewer: I understand.

Kleeman: Around the Zoo.

Interviewer: Did you see whether a lot of Americans-

Kleeman: Sure the Americans smell them out fast. [laughs] You’re growing up now.

Interviewer: The story is always that the officers got the better houses was 
that true?

Kleeman: The officers went wild.

Interviewer: Yeah they had the better houses?  Did they go to the better houses.

Kleeman: I don’t know where they slept, I had no idea-  Well they weren’t 
sleeping [laughs]  I know we slept in a zoo which was not elegant.

Interviewer: Did you come across signs of the German Resistance, was there 
any German resistance still at that time in Paris?

Kleeman: Oh yes, there was still fighting, I was doing a little shooting in 
Paris myself-

Interviewer: Well talk about that.

Kleeman: On one of the bridges we were, they were shooting at us from a, on top 
of an Apartment house you couldn’t see them but we were shooting back at them.

Interviewer: Well how did that feel-

Kleeman: We didn’t know if it was the Germans or whether the FFI trying to shoot 
at the Germans, we had no Idea.

Interviewer: Wow.

Kleeman: But the, the most of the Germans in Paris were captured by the French 
because they knew the streets better.

Interviewer: Well that’s the famous order that the Germans wouldn’t obey they 
were going to destroy Paris.

Kleeman: The Germans wanted to be taken by Americans.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Right.  We know that.  But the, the, the Hotel Maurice where the 
German Headquarters was in the General von Cholitz was there, he was taken by 
a French Officer, they let him go in and capture him.  He had to give him some 
honor you know?

Interviewer: It’s their city after all.

Kleeman: That’s more, that was protocol you know? [laughs]

Interviewer: You mentioned being shot at though, was that the first time you 
were shot at in combat?

Kleeman: What?

Interviewer: You mentioned being shot at by the, someone shooting at you?

Kleeman: Yeah, that was the first time I used my gun.

Interviewer: That was the first time?  What was that like for you?

Kleeman: Well you were shooting you didn’t know what you were shooting at the 
building out there, up,  up, the upper level the top floor,-

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: -they must have been on the roof or something, shooting at us for a 
while, we were ducking on a bridge, against the wall hoping that they don’t 
find you.

Interviewer: No fear-

Kleeman: Nobody, nobody around us was wounded.

Interviewer: Did you, I mean can you describe the sense of fear or was there 
a fear or was it just excitement or?

Kleeman: Well it was part of a, part of a war.

Interviewer: Right, right.

Kleeman: Whatever, you did what everybody else did so you, that’s all, it wasn’t 
exciting it was just a natural thing to do.

Interviewer: Okay, okay.

Kleeman: But otherwise life in Paris was blackout, it was nothing, you understand 
what I mean?

Interviewer: Right, they were  still close to the front, right, right.  Did you 
see any signs of the French Collaboration?

Kleeman: Oh I saw, I saw a lot them, well the French Collaborationists they did 
their own war.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: They knew whom to, who was sleeping with the Germans and they knew 
exactly whom to, I don’t know where they took them but they put on the front 
of their cars on the hoods and took them away.  They were fighting themselves.

Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.

Kleeman: That was not the 2nd French Armored division.

Interviewer: That was the FFI.

Kleeman: That was the FFI what they call them.  They came out in quantities 
they, they came alive.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: And I understand De Gaulle was afraid of them.  Because they were 
mostly communists and De Gaulle didn’t want them to get power.  So he came 
in on a Parade about two days later.

Interviewer: Were you there for that parade?

Kleeman: No, we were, we had moved when the 28th division put on a parade 
into Paris.

Interviewer: Okay.

Kleeman: We already were moving up north.

Interviewer: Where were you going after Paris?  Where were you going after 
Paris?

Kleeman: We were going north towards Belgium.  Took a few days and we hit 
Belgian Border.

Interviewer: Okay.

Kleeman: I can, I can look it up where, but there wasn’t too much fighting 
going North neither.

Interviewer: They were running?

Kleeman: So it was always the advanced detail was in front of the division 
and they were always moving, the Germans had retreated.

Interviewer: Were they conducting any destruction of property as the 
retreated.  Did the Germans destroy any property as they retreated?

Kleeman: In, no, in those days they were trying to save themselves.  They 
were not, they may have destroyed a bridge now and then.

Interviewer: That’s an act of war though.

Kleeman: But that’s normal and the American, the Engineers were always 
ready to throw up a temporary bridge for the Army to move over.

Interviewer: Okay.

Kleeman: That was, very little opposition all the way into Belgium.

Interviewer: When were things did things finally start to slow down?

Kleeman: Pardon?

Interviewer: When did the advance start to slow down?

Kleeman: It didn’t slow down till we hit the German Border.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: We went into Belgium and then into the Ardennes.  Where we crossed 
into, the Ardennes were in the Belgium in that time and then we hit in 
Germany September 12th.

Interviewer: Okay.

Kleeman: Yeah.

Interviewer: What town in Germany, what was they first town in Germany you-

Kleeman: The German was, villages no big city.

Interviewer: Do you remember that-

Kleeman: Yes, small, small villages.

Interviewer: Do you remember the feeling-

Kleeman: Well at first a few village, a few towns were, towns that changed hands 
every war.  Like St. With was Belgium then it was German, then it was Belgium in 
other words those people had to speak French or German they, they were every 
twenty-five years it changed hands.

Interviewer: What was your feeling about returning to Germany the first time?

Kleeman: Well, then, then, I was important then, when we hit those, that country, 
where the land has been changing all the time, I was with Major Fusset all the 
time and we, we managed but there was very little tough fighting going on, the 
Germans must have pulled out very fast they must have realized that they, they 
didn’t want to be killed so they went back.

Interviewer: What did the civilians think of Americans?

Kleeman: Civilians they were all happy they were all happy, they brought out 
flowers and they brought out wine. [laughs]

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: They were happy but that time of course you, you didn’t know what once 
you hit Germany you there the Germans got tough again.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Once a few miles inside Germany it stopped.

Interviewer: Right, and what did you think of that?  I mean, you were, you were 
returning home.

Kleeman: They were, they didn’t want their home state invaded.

Interviewer: But you as a German returning to Germany.

Kleeman: Yeah I know but I had to be careful I never wanted to be captured by 
them.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: Because as a German and a Jew your life wasn’t worth anything.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: So I had to be very careful not to even get near a place where they 
could come out and capture you.

Interviewer: Did that effect your performance at all you think?

Kleeman: That would have been a death Certificate.

Interviewer: Did that effect you performance?  Did that effect your 
performance you think, or not?

Kleeman: Well that is something you had to worry about because when the war 
moved fast you never know how many were hiding in a woods might come out at 
night and surprise you you didn’t know whether they were all notified to move 
back or not and so you had to be very careful.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Because when a war moves very fast you don’t know what’s left in 
the Woods.  Nah, In Germany they could be hiding in any farmhouse, 
anything.  In Germany it was a different war.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Well one of the features of the war at that time is that it changes 
from being a fast moving war to a static war.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: On the Hurtgen Forest.  In Germany I was there the first, the day we 
moved into Germany and we were in a very small town maybe village five six 
houses and there was a stream going down and this village was on one side and 
we were at the other side of the stream.  So, and the job was to put up a 
proclamation on German Soil so they could sent back to the Army and Corps that 
we entered Germany.  So what happened on the one side of the town was my own 
old regiment and here was Colonel Stauty the commanding officer was sitting at 
the edge and I went to my Jeep and gave him a bottle of liquor because I knew 
him very well.  He was happy and then he didn’t say anything I took the 
proclamation I waded across the river there water was not deep and I went 
into the first farmhouse and from what I noticed the Germans must have gone 
out the back door.  There was still hot food on the table and I didn’t 
realize it then but if they would have shot at me couldn’t have done anything 
because I was all by myself.  So luckily they didn’t fight they walked away 
and I hung up the paper and went back on and I was glad after I realized it 
was the most dangerous part for me to go there alone.  Because it was just a 
moment that they could have waited for me.  Anyhow I came back in one piece 
and two days later this colonel got killed.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: The one I gave the bottle to.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: So there it started to get tough, they knew their own territory and 
they had orders not to let the Americans go into Germany.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: So that was when it, the picture changed.

Interviewer: The fighting at the Hurtgen Forest is some of the bitterest 
fighting in the war.

Kleeman: That Hurtgen Forest was three months later.

Interviewer: Right, you want to fill in the gaps up until then, or?  Do 
you want to fill the gap in between them then?  What did you do?

Kleeman: Well we were occupying land after that, we were then then we 
moved into a little town Brial which was all German and we didn’t stay 
in the in the town we stayed in the woods outside and after a few days 
orders came to we have to move out all civilians from the town, they 
didn’t want any there in case German Soldiers came back as civilians 
and were trying to hide.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: So, we got orders to evacuate the town I think it was September 
seventeenth or something-

Interviewer: How many people were there? 

Kleeman: It’s in my book.  And I was still with Major Fusset he was with me and 
two days before another colonel from the 22nd Infantry who was in a village away 
from this town about five miles and they told us he has problems we should go up 
and spend the day with him so Major Fusset and I we drove up, the Village name 
was Bouchet and I was called into the Colonels office and he, it was I forgot 
his name it comes to me in a minute, and he says ‘Coporal! We’re now in Germany!  
We’re taking the velvet gloves off and we’re becoming bad, bad soldiers.’  He 
says the they already had civilians moved  from the few farm houses the village 
only had three or for houses, so he says to me, ‘The cattle around here that 
runs loose is in my way.  We got to, have to clear roads, we need this.’  So I 
said “Yes sir. Yes sir.’ So, and I had one or two guy left behind to take care 
of the cattle so I went in and told him ‘Keep your cattle in your barn otherwise 
they will be slaughtered’ 

Interviewer: They did it?

Kleeman: I had to appease the Colonel, so that night we slept in that house 
where the Colonel had his office and Hemmingway was there and John [?] was 
there and I slept in the Cellar.  Potato cellar we used to call it.  And across 
the street was the, the team that took care of interrogating the prisoners of 
war, so I knew those boys those that, said hello to them, anyhow that we 
stayed there another day then we went back to the [?] area, when the orders 
came to evacuate that town.

Interviewer: What did you think again as a German about the comments that 
we’re taking the gloves off? We’re now going to be bad, we’re now going to 
be bad soldiers we’re now going to be tough soldiers.

Kleeman: Say it again. 

Interviewer: You’re a German.

Kleeman: Yes.

Interviewer: Despite wearing a G.I. uniform, you’re still a German, what 
were your feelings about being told that we’re taking the gloves off.  
That we’re going to be rough now.

Kleeman: Well I feel, he had to say something so that was his 
expression to-

Interviewer: It didn’t offend your sensibilities in any way or?

Kleeman: Well, they were all happy that they had reached German soil.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Because it was about a mile or so away the west wall, what used to be 
called the Siegfried Line.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: There was a story, that he had some German Soldiers locked into one 
of the Fortresses of the line and next morning he had Stars and Stripes and 
other newspapers that-

[END OF SIDE A]

[BEGINNING OF SIDE B]

Interviewer: As you said then the Colonel we ran out of tape, finish that 
story had the Stars and Stripes people show up.

Kleeman: Yeah he wanted to be a hero and it should look that he captured 
those German soldiers.  And he I think he got, I don’t know if they wrote 
him up to get a medal or not but that was a rumor that happened.

Interviewer: In interacting with the people of the villages, they know you 
were German.

Kleeman: No, the, the people, they knew I spoke German-

Interviewer: But they didn’t know you were German?

Kleeman: They didn’t know.

Interviewer: Did  any of, what was your-

Kleeman: We didn’t, we didn’t get that friendly with them, they were enemies,

Interviewer: What was-

Kleeman: -you know what I mean?

Interviewer: Right, what was your opinion of these German civilians?
 
Kleeman: I had no opinion I know they they had to behave I mean they couldn’t 
afford to when we said it’s a curfew at seven o’clock at night they knew we 
meant it, and so and, you didn’t, you couldn’t trust them yet it was, it was 
German.

Interviewer: Did you think or did you know that there were any Nazis amongst-

Kleeman: There were not that many men around.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Only a few old men and kids, but the main age was not, you didn’t 
find any.

Interviewer: What about the Women?

Kleeman: The women didn’t see many.  No, and of course there was orders, 
no Fraternization.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: The American Army was supposed to be forbidden to touch German women.

Interviewer: Well we know what happened there...

Kleeman: Yeah that was, a strict order what the soldiers did in different homes 
we don’t know.  But that was supposed to have been the order of the day.

Interviewer: Without the people there to safeguard their property anything 
could have happened.

Kleeman: Anything could happen right, you were lucky that there were some 
houses that were standing you know what I mean.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: That the artillery didn’t level everything, but you didn’t know.

Interviewer: Did you see or hear any accounts of looting by American soldiers 
there?

Kleeman: Any?

Interviewer: Accounts of Looting?

Kleeman: No.

Interviewer: By Americans?

Kleeman: No, we didn’t.

Interviewer: Or petty theft or-

Kleeman: If it was it the complaint didn’t come back to us.

Interviewer: Okay, and you didn’t see it or hear it?

Kleeman: No, no, no, no.  It was new, you know it was new, it was all in the 
beginning.

Interviewer: Yeah.  Were your other soldiers that you were with that you 
were in contact with, what were their feelings about finally being in Germany?

Kleeman: What was their feeling?

Interviewer: The other soldiers.

Kleeman: The other soldiers?

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: I, I guess they realized that this is the end of the war and it had to 
be done and they, were all hoping that we will get it done and go home but that 
was in September, September forty-four.

Interviewer: Right, right.

Kleeman: That’s when we, 4th Division was in Germany and from there we went 
into Belgium back in Belgium a little while and then came Hurtgen Forest, that 
was Germany again, well was it beautiful up there?

Miriam: Lovely

Kleeman: Lovely?  Now you know the difference between toilets, that’s called 
the ladies toilets. [laughs]

Interviewer: There you go.

Kleeman: Did the college offer you that type of a toilet?  No. [laughs]

Interviewer: There you go, yeah have to come to Werner’s house.  Well let’s 
unless there’s something you want to speak about with Belgium shouldn’t we 
move ahead to Hertgen? Should we talk about Hertgen, or?

Kleeman: Say it again?

Interviewer: Is there anything else you wish to mention about Belgium 
before we talk about Hertgen?

Kleeman: About?

Interviewer: Belgium.  Belgium.

Kleeman: Belgium?  Belgium, was different from France, when we hit 
Belgium people were different.

Interviewer: How?

Kleeman: They were friendly, they were warm and they had lot of, not a lot but 
quite a few Pilots that had been on bombers over Germany on the way back 
either, their, the plane ran out of gas or something, they parachuted into 
Belgium.

Interviewer: Okay. 

Kleeman: Yeah, and the Belgian people, the farmers found them and took them in, 
and didn’t turn them over to the German army, they protected them, they gave 
them farm clothes to wear that they didn’t wear their uniforms and they put 
them up, they had nice farmhouses and in, if the Germans would come to search 
they’d put them up, they put another wall between room, which they called a 
hidden room.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: And they put this the pilot into that room when they sensed that 
somebody might come and inspect the house.  And that room was big enough to 
sleep in, and there was a door going into the hall and in front of the door 
they put a high closet that they didn’t know there was a door there.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: They did everything, we must have found about seventy pilots like 
that in two days.

Interviewer: That’s amazing.

Kleeman: Yeah, yeah, we were not equipped for them of course we were doing 
our job but we told them you’ll be picked up tomorrow or so, but that was 
in Belgium, didn’t happen in France like that.

Interviewer: Right, was there a lot fraternization in Belgium?  A lot of 
fraternization in Belgium? 

Kleeman: I don’t know, we didn’t, we didn’t have much touch with the rest 
of the division we did our own the Major Fusset and myself, many times 
the local priest would invite him in for dinner, and I would eat my 
ration because some of these priests spoke English and he didn’t need me 
there.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: So I left him alone and Belgium was different.

Interviewer: Okay.

Kleeman: Belgium was warm and they tried to help, you know, if you know 
what I mean.

Interviewer: Right.  By this time you’re hearing about what’s happened in 
Holland, but this time you’ve probably heard about what happened in 
Holland, right?

Kleeman: What happened?

Interviewer: With the British attempt?  The British attempt to cross the 
Rhine.

Kleeman: Oh the British, that was in September.

Interviewer: Yeah, you’d heard about that?

Kleeman: Yeah, yeah, we heard it was a failure we only heard what the Stars and 
Stripes were allowed to right about.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: But we didn’t, whatever, once in a while somebody had a radio and got a 
British station, but we didn’t have one.  I never looked for one.

Interviewer: Okay.  Were you interacting at all with replacements?  Did you come, 
how were you dealing with replacements at this point?

Kleeman: How did I do?

Interviewer: With replacements.

Kleeman: Replacement?

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: They came, no, they weren’t that many casualties at that time.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: The casualties only came in Hurtgen Forest.

Interviewer: Okay well we’ll-

Kleeman: Up to Hurtgen Forest we didn’t need much the boys were patrolling the 
river and Luxembourg, Belgium and Luxembourg is like one.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Luxembourg is a small state and we were there too, it was all relaxing, 
it was very little fighting and it was like I said we were, we were marking time 
for equipment to come in and gasoline because they had no more gasoline.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Even Patton couldn’t attack anymore, because he needed a lot of 
gasoline and there wasn’t any.

Interviewer: Well then to go back to Hurtgen, I mean there’s, there’s the idea 
some historians argue, Hurtgen Forest didn’t need to be fought.

Kleeman: Hurtgen Forest was the biggest failure and, I call it a criminal act 
from a General with his head, he wanted to go through the forest and it wasn’t 
that necessary could have gone around him or could have let it, let it lay 
idle for a while.

Interviewer: Yeah, I mean three division were chewed up in-

Kleeman: Three divisions he was bleeding to death.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: For one little area and of course the General wants to do something they 
let him do it.  But it was a waste of time.

Interviewer: Well you had first was, first infantry division-

Kleeman: First, Twenty-Eight-

Interviewer: Twenty eighth and then the fourth.

Kleeman: Yeah, the First, the first had occupied Aachen.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: And they were loosing men there but they were to push into the 
Forest, then the Twenty Eighth, then us.  After us I think the ninth came or 
some…

Interviewer: I think it is the ninth, yeah.

Kleeman: That was a waste of manpower.

Interviewer: Well you hit, when do you, when do you first go into the forest?  
When do you first go into the forest?

Kleeman: We went in at the end of…November seventh I believe It’s in my book, we 
went up there early November and stayed till about first of December, fifth of 
December, three weeks, four, three weeks I think we were up in what’s call 
Szweifall, yeah.

Describe what the terrain was like.

Kleeman: That, that town was alright, but there was no electric and 
civilians were there they didn’t evacuate them but the Americans occupied 
maybe half of the homes.

Interviewer: What was the countryside like around it?

Kleeman: Wooded area, wooded area, hills and mountains and, not, not level 
ground-

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: -it was hills.

Interviewer: When you say forested, Wooded-

Kleeman: The forest was also very thick forest, no roads going through, yeah, 
very, very bad to fight war, tanks couldn’t go in.

Interviewer: Yeah, it was-

Kleeman: Very bad area.

Interviewer: And of course it’s November so what was the weather like?

Kleeman: The weather was lousy rain, snow, fog, very, lot of floods of swamp.  
The roads couldn’t pass them they had to take trees and wood roads, one tree 
after another to get through an area.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: They had the engineers cut down trees.

Interviewer: Right.

Kleeman: Was very bad.  The worst to fight a war but when the General wants 
something he wants it.

Well what was you task during that time? What was your task?

Kleeman: Well we were waiting if we get to the other end of the Forest.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Kleeman: But we never, as far as I know we never get in, one day another 
Major took me in he says ‘We got to go into Schmidt,’ Schmidt was a small 
town the other side, inside the forest so, we had to drive up there it was 
next to impossible, the command of the battalion was the farmhouse had been 
leveled and the command post was in the basement you had to go down a 
ladder to find it, that’s how bad it was but when a General says ‘you have 
to take’ you have to stay and do it, either life or death, they killed more 
people there then they could count.

Interviewer: We’re gonna-

Kleeman: That’s what Hemingway wrote a bad story, that they would have been 
better off shooting them when they come off the truck, instead of taking 
them in the woods and shooting them.

[END OF RECORDING]

End of Tape 04 of 05

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